Ryan Cross
on Feb 3. 2007. 9:20 am
This might seem like an odd question, but since it appears there is mainly just the one developer here, what would it take to get to the 1.0 release? USD$1000 and 1 month? $5000 and 2 weeks? $100 and 6 months? A new computer? Another core developer?
I ask because i know this isn't your day job, but if enough people donated or whatever else you need - beta testers, more developers, etc - then maybe we could get further ahead. Obviously alot of companies are also using aC so there could be several companies that might be willing to sponsor the development or something. FWIW i might be on both sides, i'm starting to utilize aC but am finding some missing pieces so i might be a position to do organize a little bit of sponsorship or I might be interested/able to contribute code (though i'm hesitant to start down that path without some sort of agreement with the current developer since there doesn't seem to be much documentation or other general devel community here)
What does everyone else think?
I ask because i know this isn't your day job, but if enough people donated or whatever else you need - beta testers, more developers, etc - then maybe we could get further ahead. Obviously alot of companies are also using aC so there could be several companies that might be willing to sponsor the development or something. FWIW i might be on both sides, i'm starting to utilize aC but am finding some missing pieces so i might be a position to do organize a little bit of sponsorship or I might be interested/able to contribute code (though i'm hesitant to start down that path without some sort of agreement with the current developer since there doesn't seem to be much documentation or other general devel community here)
What does everyone else think?
DaveTheAve
on Feb 3. 2007. 6:42 pm
I'd hit that... um.. I mean I'd donate and I'd help program too. I'm sure others from DevNet would love to help also. If you don't want our help, at least finish the plugin system so we can create our own features and you can merge them into the core later if you want.
viceroy321
on Feb 4. 2007. 7:42 pm
Ilija:Amount of details that you need to handle when launching such a project is really big - big enough to stop me from working on anything else in order to meet the deadlines.
I can totally, perfectly understand that.
Ilija:I'm not the guy who think that software should be free, community developed and supported and all that open source mambo jumbo.
Although i can't understand that, it's good to know.
Ilija:I'm more for controlled development process (you noticed that, right?)
i noticed that, some time ago, with some astonishment, to be perfectly honest.....
Ilija:My goal is to make acitiveCollab my day job and optimize the whole process so I can get the most from time invested.
I can understand that, but believe it conflicts with some of the "open source mambo jumbo", for example community devel....
Ilija:
Also, I want to have enough time to work on other project ideas that I have. I don't know how I'll do that, there are some ideas that I'm playing with (some of them you'll like, some not) but expect few changes in project structure in next few months.
if enough people dislike what you do, they'll fork. that's the beauty of open source.
(edit:) i read my post again: please don't see this as anything attacking-you/threatening/anything-like-it, you are doing great work for free and i certainly respect you...
but really, let me ask you two questions:
1. do you _prefer_ to develop aC alone ? or is it just, that nobody stepped up to you and said: "Ilija, can I help you? I have some free time to spend...."
2. if you call "free software", "community development" and "community support" and all that "open source mambo jumbo", then what is your idea of an "open source project" like activeCollab. and yes, i read ( http://www.activecollab.com/blog/1/why-is-activecollab-free/ ), but it dosn't really answer my question: what is, in your opinion, an "open source project" ?
greetings to novi sad.
Ryan Cross
on Feb 5. 2007. 1:54 am
I must admit, i'm very disappointed by the response. First of all, my question was aimed to get some sort of specific answer to what "big time investment" it would take. $100,000/year? $1,000/month? a million dollars? In otherwords, my question could've been worded as, "what would it take for you to stop your current day job and concentrate on activecollab fulltime?"
Secondly, I just finished reading the other post, ( http://www.activecollab.com/blog/1/why-is-activecollab-free/ ), and I'm a little confused as well. Why don't you want this to turn into the "Drupal of project management"? (that would seem like a good thing) It sounds like your biggest reason is that you want to make sure that you can make money from this project - which is a perfectly resonable desire. However, I don't think that opening up the project to the community prevents you from making money. The Drupal project is even a good example because lots of people are making money from that project. In fact the general business model for alot of opensource projects is to make money by providing support/customization instead of selling the code.
I would also point out that the Drupal project is also some what controlled in its development because there are a very small group of core commiters (3 to be specific). They usually allow themselves and the community to decide the directions of the project, but ultimately it is their decision to decide what goes in and what stays out. Its not anarchy. I think the reason people haven't forked drupal is because the core commiters respond to the community and also because the plugin system is so good that it doesn't need to be forked, but that's a different issue. I guess the other concern here is that if you are not able to work on this project for periods of time, the community is not able to make any progress on their own and any serious issues will be forced to fork out of necessity. I think its perfectly ok for a developer (even the core one) to take time off or work on other projects, but other opensource projects are able to continue because they allow at least one other person to help control the code.
Your post mentions that you are quite busy now trying to launch this month, but I would really appreciate if you might consider these issues a bit more deeply. I also don't want to insult or attack you, so please don't take it that way. I'm just confused by some of your thoughts, and ultimately just want to see this turn into a really good project.
On a side note - its interesting that you brought up the Drupal project (which i work with and love). Part of the reason to prompt my original post is that there are a lot of "little things" as well as some fair features that I've been waiting on to show up in a new release. The lack of updates/progress has left me frustrated, and so I'm actually considering trying to recreate something like activeCollab/Basecamp as a module in Drupal. I ultimately wanted to be able integrate aC into drupal via the api, but since this seems so far away at the current pace I'm thinking this might be the better option. Btw - this isn't a threat just an observation, but as i mentioned before this project seems to have a huge userbase behind it and a development community waiting to get behind it, and i think the current situation is forcing people to develop on their own and is probably slowly leading to a fork.
Secondly, I just finished reading the other post, ( http://www.activecollab.com/blog/1/why-is-activecollab-free/ ), and I'm a little confused as well. Why don't you want this to turn into the "Drupal of project management"? (that would seem like a good thing) It sounds like your biggest reason is that you want to make sure that you can make money from this project - which is a perfectly resonable desire. However, I don't think that opening up the project to the community prevents you from making money. The Drupal project is even a good example because lots of people are making money from that project. In fact the general business model for alot of opensource projects is to make money by providing support/customization instead of selling the code.
I would also point out that the Drupal project is also some what controlled in its development because there are a very small group of core commiters (3 to be specific). They usually allow themselves and the community to decide the directions of the project, but ultimately it is their decision to decide what goes in and what stays out. Its not anarchy. I think the reason people haven't forked drupal is because the core commiters respond to the community and also because the plugin system is so good that it doesn't need to be forked, but that's a different issue. I guess the other concern here is that if you are not able to work on this project for periods of time, the community is not able to make any progress on their own and any serious issues will be forced to fork out of necessity. I think its perfectly ok for a developer (even the core one) to take time off or work on other projects, but other opensource projects are able to continue because they allow at least one other person to help control the code.
Your post mentions that you are quite busy now trying to launch this month, but I would really appreciate if you might consider these issues a bit more deeply. I also don't want to insult or attack you, so please don't take it that way. I'm just confused by some of your thoughts, and ultimately just want to see this turn into a really good project.
On a side note - its interesting that you brought up the Drupal project (which i work with and love). Part of the reason to prompt my original post is that there are a lot of "little things" as well as some fair features that I've been waiting on to show up in a new release. The lack of updates/progress has left me frustrated, and so I'm actually considering trying to recreate something like activeCollab/Basecamp as a module in Drupal. I ultimately wanted to be able integrate aC into drupal via the api, but since this seems so far away at the current pace I'm thinking this might be the better option. Btw - this isn't a threat just an observation, but as i mentioned before this project seems to have a huge userbase behind it and a development community waiting to get behind it, and i think the current situation is forcing people to develop on their own and is probably slowly leading to a fork.
Some interesting points made by everyone, and I would certainly be willing to donate if there was a target figure to get aC moving along more quickly (in fact maybe Ryan Cross and myself should put our money where our mouth is and click on the handy Donate button on the front page...!)
I can understand people getting frustrated from lack of updates over the last month, but the guy's been busy on other stuff, and I can live with that as historically updates have been pretty regular given that it is a one man show.
No plans to 'fork' here
I can understand people getting frustrated from lack of updates over the last month, but the guy's been busy on other stuff, and I can live with that as historically updates have been pretty regular given that it is a one man show.
No plans to 'fork' here
I'm not Ilija, but I think I might be able to address with question of controlled development by asking if you're familiar with the phrase "designed by committee". Or possibly "too many cooks in the kitchen".
Some of the most well-designed software (and I don't mean visual design) comes from small teams. Conflicts and differences of opinion increase exponentially when you add extra people. I totally understand the desire to keep the development in-house, so to speak, and don't think it conflicts with open source ideals in any way.
And contrary to popular belief, a developer wanting to get the most of his time investment, whether in terms of money or anything else, also does not conflict with open source ideals.
Some of the most well-designed software (and I don't mean visual design) comes from small teams. Conflicts and differences of opinion increase exponentially when you add extra people. I totally understand the desire to keep the development in-house, so to speak, and don't think it conflicts with open source ideals in any way.
And contrary to popular belief, a developer wanting to get the most of his time investment, whether in terms of money or anything else, also does not conflict with open source ideals.
Ryan Cross
on Feb 5. 2007. 11:20 pm
anianem:Some interesting points made by everyone, and I would certainly be willing to donate if there was a target figure to get aC moving along more quickly (in fact maybe Ryan Cross and myself should put our money where our mouth is and click on the handy Donate button on the front page...!)
I can understand people getting frustrated from lack of updates over the last month, but the guy's been busy on other stuff, and I can live with that as historically updates have been pretty regular given that it is a one man show.
No plans to 'fork' here
Hey anianem - that sentiment was kind of where the original post was aimed at. If there was a target amount, i'd be much more willing to donate. For example, as i start using this more and more i might be inclined to donate $10, just because i like using it. But if i knew that if enough money was raised some sort of target amount, then it would be towards a more specific goal. Plus, it would make something like a corporate sponsorship easy to do. How do you go to your boss and say, "hey, i think we should give this guy $1000. Oh, it won't directly improve the software we're using but hopefully it'll help in the long run" That's a difficult persuasion
Also, @ kchrist, I totally understand the idea of too many cooks in the kitchen. I think having a small team is better than one man though. As i mentioned before, drupal has a 3 person core team.
Hi all,
I am following this thread since a few days and the messages (and Ilija *not* replying to viceroy's questions) are very interesting.
IMHO the most important thing is said in Ryan's words: "but other opensource projects are able to continue because they allow at least one other person to help control the code". This is the main issue I do have with aC and what disappoints me too - is it an opensource project or not / can you participate (in which degree or under what structure whatever) or not?
As far as I can see this is not the case and I feel sorry for contributing the initial German translation and some ideas / specs just to learn that my motivation will be seen as "mambo jumbo".
I think right now is the time when Ilija has to decide in which direction aC will run. @Ilija - please rethink your opinion to avoid a fork. There are good examples of OSS project from which many people can make money and aC should be one of it.
If you are unsure how to set up the project or how to manage it, I can recommend Karl Fogel's pretty good book "Producing Open Source Software" (you can download a CC-licensed PDF from www.producingoss.com). Another idea for a possible project setup is at http://www.activecollab.com/forums/topic/874. I think there are enough people here willing to contribute and we can give aC a big push forward together.
Best regards
Roland
PS: @Ryan - do you work on the "organic groups" module in Drupal? This seems to me the most promising module for enhancement since it already has wikis, messages, permissions and so on (http://drupal.org/project/og). There is a nice screencast at http://www.zacker.org/files/drupal_og_og2list.mov.
PPS: Depending on Ilija's decision I am thinking of forking. If then someone likes to do exchange thoughts about that just mail me at roland[dot]woldt[at]gmx[dot]de.
I am following this thread since a few days and the messages (and Ilija *not* replying to viceroy's questions) are very interesting.
IMHO the most important thing is said in Ryan's words: "but other opensource projects are able to continue because they allow at least one other person to help control the code". This is the main issue I do have with aC and what disappoints me too - is it an opensource project or not / can you participate (in which degree or under what structure whatever) or not?
As far as I can see this is not the case and I feel sorry for contributing the initial German translation and some ideas / specs just to learn that my motivation will be seen as "mambo jumbo".
I think right now is the time when Ilija has to decide in which direction aC will run. @Ilija - please rethink your opinion to avoid a fork. There are good examples of OSS project from which many people can make money and aC should be one of it.
If you are unsure how to set up the project or how to manage it, I can recommend Karl Fogel's pretty good book "Producing Open Source Software" (you can download a CC-licensed PDF from www.producingoss.com). Another idea for a possible project setup is at http://www.activecollab.com/forums/topic/874. I think there are enough people here willing to contribute and we can give aC a big push forward together.
Best regards
Roland
PS: @Ryan - do you work on the "organic groups" module in Drupal? This seems to me the most promising module for enhancement since it already has wikis, messages, permissions and so on (http://drupal.org/project/og). There is a nice screencast at http://www.zacker.org/files/drupal_og_og2list.mov.
PPS: Depending on Ilija's decision I am thinking of forking. If then someone likes to do exchange thoughts about that just mail me at roland[dot]woldt[at]gmx[dot]de.
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