Pricing details, updated

That’s too bad the business can’t support a free version. So it goes and I wish you the best.

In the mean time, where can we get activeCollab 0.7.1?

what about Max. active projects?
Unlimited?

These prices seem much more reasonable to me, however since you are not offering a free version it may be difficult for people to determine if this app suits their needs without purchasing. Would it be possible to offer a 30 day trial version or perhaps a grace period where you can cancel within say 30 days risk free? That would make it a lot easier to get buy in from the suits here at my office if they could see it working in a limited capacity without cost. I am not trying to be negative as the new pricing structure seems much more realistic, just making a suggestion. I look forward to your release.

I’m have a “small biz”, but I also need calendar, tickets, time tracking and pages. If the $399 price tag of the “corporate” package is still a bit steep, its definitely something my company can afford, if the tool really works for me. The demo/testing phase will be of a crucial importance to confirm that. Thanks for having re-thought your pricing plans, the previous ones where really a no-no for me !

Wow, that’s quite a change. It looks to be a much bigger possibility for me now.

I agree that 0.7 will be sufficient for the free version. I have been using it for a while and it works just fine.

Will you be offering a hosted demo app that we can log into? Similar to what copper does?

It’s looking good, but I definitely need to play before I take the plunge.

Awesome. Hat tip on re-thinking the pricing. Oct 5.th is marked on the calendar.

Stunning. I will test drive this and be a potential customer for the Corporate Edition. Thank you. (Currently on BaseCamp, which gets rave reviews from everyone but they hold my data hostage, which is a bad, bad thing).

Thanks Ilija,

This makes a lot more sense.

Look forward to October 5th

30 Day trial?

Money-back guarantee?

I’d like to try something out before I shell out $200!

New pricing strategy is much more focussed. If you’re not prepared to offer any product or service to charities and non-profit organisations you’ve made the right choice.

I agree that this is a much better pricing structure. I too would like to know if there will be a demo or trial version? Charging money—any money—changes the dynamic. Unlike before, I am ready, willing even, to spend the money on aC. But I like to know what I’m getting into. I’m not trying to get something for free. Far from it. I simply want to evaluate aC on its merits before making a financial investment. Even a shared, hosted demo would probably suffice. A time-limited private demo would be even better.

Thanks, this price plan makes much more sense. Do you plan to offer some money back guarantee? Or online demo?

im looking this page every week to see when will activecollab be available.

but now you tell me, that there is not going to be a free version? :S, 0.7.1 is ok, but 1.0 is better (i think), so… time to look into another collaboration project.

bye

Much more reasonable pricing and I’m sure your overall sales will reflect that. But you might want to reconsider the FREE version decision; why not a free version labeled a ‘permanent trial’ as follows:
– 1 user – 3 projects – no support

To allow potential customers to kick the tires?

much better.

an online demo/trial is of course essential.

regarding the source code license, does it say that if you guys go out of business then the code will automatically become licensed under a gpl-compatible license so that the community can maintain it?

I agree with what’s being said above—a very light version plus these would be nice. The pricing model is much more affordable (in line with, say, EE).

Where you end up worse off than the initial model is (1) multiple small sites (as in you want to install for 4 or 5 clubs or non-profits), and (2) people who want to evaluate aC 1.0 over a period of time to see if moving to the full version is worthwhile.

This new pricing structure hits a home run for users who have one install to support, or multiple installs for substantial (or paying) users. I hope you sell a ton of licenses at these price levels! They are very fair, in my opinion.

My take: much better, but not perfect. Consider tweaking the entry level and evaluation uses.

These prices are really fair and I’m definately going to buy activeCollab once it’s out. We don’t really need a free version, 0.71 works finde for me and I’m sure it will be maintained by volunteers now that we know there won’t be any new free releases.

A proprietary license is okay, as long as:
a) it allows modifications to be distributed (I want to share the mods I made!)
b) you make sure the source won’t vanish if you go out of business (either make a “if we go away, license becomes GPL” or own the code and not seel it to a big player)

And now I’m looking forward to October 5th :)

On 2007-09-21 12:53, Ilija Studen wrote:

> This includes the source too. It will be available
> and completely open, but under proprietary
> license. You will not be able to fork or rebrand it.

perfect in that this allows for changes to be made for “internal” use.

additionally, as i mention previously, please add a clause that frees the code for community maintenance in the event that you go out of business—this is critical for any business that wants to rely on your product indefinitely.

Far better in my opinion – one more question though: You mentioned a first release candidate before the final release somewhere within the forum. Are those plans still valid? =)

Good to see that you are listening to the users. This is a much better plan and shows concern for the community. Keep listening and I am sure that things will work out for the best, there are some good points above. Although the new price is affordable, our firm will need to save up before we can commit, in the meantime we will wait for the demo.

buy buy free – damn you guy, you had to ruin it!

That’s a more realistic price structure for me too. Plus I’ll be able to tweak the code for my own unusual purposes, which is worth a lot. I’m sure you’ll sell more than ten times as many copies as with the previous prices :)

I will happily spend the $399. I would have paid a little more.

Speak to us about version revisions. Say 2 years from now I did not renew my support agreement but version 2.0 comes out with features I want to roll in. All I want is the source code updates – I can manage the rest.

As a previous customer, will I have an upgrade path that is less expensive than buying a new copy?

I have been looking forward to the release of this software all summer, for use at a scouts organisation. Since we want to use all the finanses we have for giving the kids an experience, we have no chance of buying this software. I truly hope that You will release a free version, with the 5 project limitation, or a free version for non-profit organisations.

Alternatively, we could do with the 0.71, but without the function of Sub-Folders for files, we cannot use it. I realize that the coding in the old system are not desirable for You, but it shure would mean a lot for us, if a such function could be addet to til 0.71.

I’m really glad you guys have re-structured the pricing model. If there is no free version to be able to demo. I would just like to second the motion brought forward by other users of providing an online demo or an in-depth product video or something. I would appreciate as much online content as possible that can help me sell the software to my boss.

thanks,
Patrick
London, Canada

What a lost of time. I shoot www.activecollab.com from my bookmarks.

Ilija,

Your work as the author of ActiveCollab 0.7.1 code was, to say the least, outstanding. We, the team at OpenGoo are very thankful for it, as it served us with a framework on which to develop our project.

We never intended OGoo to be an AC fork, and we were hoping to rely on future AC versions for our framework. Luckily, as you said, there is a growing OpenSource community that will take on your effort and bring it forward. There is a project that we are working with, that does intend to be an AC fork:
ProjectPier, which might serve as the future framework for OpenGoo. If it wasn’t for you, that project would not exist.

Good luck on your new path. I’ll stay around, and hope to have the chance to keep in touch with you.

Ilija: Kudos for being responsive to the comments of your users. I am much happier to see you go full-blown commercial than for you to not be pleasing either the commercial or the OSS communities. I am much more likely to purchase a license now than I was with the previous offerings.

You have me back on board. I agree with the others, an online demo on your site will be enough for me to test it out and make an opinion. But the pricing structure is much much better. I am about 80% confident I will buy this and thats based off of screenshots and blog posts. Keep up the great work!

Interesting read on software pricing

Yes! This sounds MUCH better. Just two things:
1. You mentioned having a demo.. 30 day should be sufficient if it reflects the full functionality. Also, an extensive online preview would be a huge help to people, whether a video or an outline of features with screen shots.
2. Would there be an upgrade from the Small Biz version to the Corporate version? I hope so, as I would be starting with the Small Biz version, and with growth (hopefully) would need to upgrade later to add the other features. And if this is an option, I assume that all the project data would be retained, and would be incorporated into the new or upgraded install?

Echoing others, but thanks for responding to the community on this :)
-Kevin

Where do I send the check

I want it now!!!!!

Thanks

Probably covered elsewhere – but is there going to be a migration path from Basecamp? If so, do you have any details yet of how it might work etc.?

Yes! Much, much better!

Can’t wait to try it, speaking of which you NEED to have a Demo versions (you host?) if you expect outsiders (people not familiar with aC) to buy into it. Difference between aC 0.7.1 and this is probably huge (hopefully) and aC 0.7.1 and earlier adopters know the first one was not perfect in may ways, while 1.0 on paper looks great we need to see it in action!

Too bad no free version, but as a project management tool—people using it are probably making money from projects they are managing so this cost is not that bad really.

This pricing plan looks much better! I can’t wait. A few comments:
1. You might re-consider your support agreement with the licenses. Do not under-estimate the potential popularity of ActiveCollab. You may find yourself overwhelmed with the support requests of 100,000+ owners, and invariably your reputation would be tarnished as you would be unable to maintain the support in 1 day promise. Consider the example of X-Cart, which originally came with 1 year support… Qualiteam lost money and got a bad rep. They soon rolled out a points system for support, and are now doing very well.
2. Consider providing the licenses with a set number of points (maybe 100 for Lite and 200 for full). If you give unlimited support, you will get hundreds of easy requests that take your time. If you set a value to that support, users will read the docs or figure simple things out before contacting you. Of course – users cna buy additional support points.
3. You could even use the points system to create custom add-ons for people – who better to work on the system than the original author?

Anyway. ActiveCollab is great, and I hope you obtain the wealth you deserve :).

Will there be a procedure to upgrade from “small biz” to “corporate” should the need arise down the road?

Wicked! I didn’t expect you to really come to the party on pricing. But here, you go – at that price I can easily recommend activecollab corporate to my clients – and I can afford to buy version 1 myself! sweet!

And I agree with Chris – I’m a long-time x-cart customer and I get all the support I need with the new points system and I don’t bother them with trivial stuff.

This is MUCH better. Quite reasonable and friendly for commercial purposes. A trial version would be necessary to assess whether it’s a good fit (even for 0.7 users), but I think that would be easily possible.

S-)

This looks like a great product. 0.7.1 was great but had a few wrinkles. It seems that you are sorting them out with this version. The pricing model seems fair.

I wish it was available now. Can you post an online demo early? We will probably go for the corporate version.

Hopefully it will be easy to synchronise login with wordpress so that when a client logs into activecollab, they are also logged into wordpress. It would be useful if there was some sort of API in the form of a light-weight PHP class to help manage login sychronisation. It was be nice if there was an API for creating clients / projects so that this could be hooked into whatever payment backend we elect to use.

I agree too – the new prices are much more reasonable.

Also I think Chris has a good point on the support point model. As for upgrades, I’m a fan of ‘1.x’ upgrades are free, but new versions ie ‘2.0’ will cost $100 etc. – This is a popular model from Slideshowpro.com as opposed to yearly based upgrades..

These prices are spot on, in my opinion. Right around where I expected.

The only part I’m not sure about is grouping upgrades and support together. I don’t think I would ever need support. But, I would want to get patches/updates, etc. It seems to me that necessary upgrades should be included with the product. Maybe you can charge for add-on feature modules as separate purchases?

In any event, I really appreciate your responsiveness to the market and believe that you guys will benefit as well from this adjustment.

I agree with the sentiments above: much better pricing structure and an hosted demo is needed to evaluate the differences between the two versions before purchase. I completely understand the reasoning behind licensing the code at this stage, but I’m relieved to see the 0.7 code picked up by a maintenance group.

If I could further another suggestion for the “activeCollab Lite” pricing point: offer a fully hosted option (a la the 37Signals business strategy) for around $99 / yr for Small-Business and $199 / yr for Corporate. These would have enforceable “active” project caps, continue to generate reliable revenue for you, and allow the more reticent buyers to get a feel for the application. Plugin and code modifications would be regulated by your team, and if a hosted client needed more control, you can offer an upgrade and export path.

Personally, I’ll probably start with the Small-Business edition, unless the ticketing feature proves too essential to my workflow or the revised tasking system is ineffective in duplicating that feature. I’d love to work on this project, as well, even as just the hosting provider for the proposed option above. I really appreciate the work you’ve put in so far and look forward to seeing the polished product come Oct 5th.

Best of luck!

This is MUCH better. You Sir are a real business man. You listened to your customers and you acted upon it in such a positive way. I’m seriously thinking of the Corporate version now. Thank you!

It’s even worse! The product is not open-source anymore. Good luck! I’m deleting your feed from my feed reader.

At least you can offer ‘first sales’ offer.

For example the first 100 sales, the price would be half of the list. This is just as a thankyou for your long time users and feed readers.

Thanks

Sorry, but no free version? Why did I even bother following this project…

This time is way better. With first pricing I’d prefer to use nullified script, tbh ?) Now I’d prefer to buy aC to support the project =)

People, you must know that the money spent on the software will be invested into the development of new versions of ActiveCollab. The money earned from AC 1.0 will be the first real cash that the AC will get > which will enable the hiring of new developers > faster AC development > get yourself more productivity > earn more $$$. This is not the expense, this is investment. I do not want to hear any more complaints about the price. How little do you earn if this is expensive!? Previous pricing model was bad, I admit. Use 0.7 until you earn some $$$.

This model opens up the possibility to create hosted solutions of AC, on the Basecamp principle. I know how to install LAMP and AC on top of it, but 90-95% need to look for help which will pay at least $100 just for install + you need to buy a hosting solution which costs at least $20 a month. It would be very nice if all the dirty work could do someone else, and you just create an account and use it. Hosted solution is the source of constant cash input, which will rocket further development.

New version of AC will be by far the most advanced project/team management software on the planet, it will by far be better than BaseCamp which was the initial target in the AC 0.7 version. BaseCamp is offering HighRise and similar bulls*it, they are neglecting the core BaseCamp project leaving the AC guys pleanty of room to start world dominaton. ;)

Major difference between BaseCamp and ActiveCollab will be that you can get the software on your own server (much faster to work with) or rent it (slower but no $$$ for administration). BaseCamp will never give away it’s source code, that’s for sure.

I would never use the hosted solution because my company needs privacy and the data is sensitive, so I will cash out the full version and have it installed on my server.

Hi, I’m really sorry, but we – a small team of environmental activist, supporting different groups and organizing events will not be able to afford either of the new versions.
Also I think, that especially a lot of the non-profits have quite some needs – like a calendar is a very basic need for us – and most groups we work together with.

After spending a lot of time with aC – and REALLY waiting for the new release, I’m very sad and disappointed having to turn for other options. All the time I postponed our teams “no worries, the new AC will be there this summer” – but now we really have to start all over again, looking for new systems, testing, moving data.
I’m very sad about this – and sorry – but anyway…
Thanks

The pricing surely is reasonable for users who use aC as a project management tool for their business. However, I mainly use aC for collaboration at university projects together with some other students, and we were very happy to see the development of v1.0 and were in pleasant anticipation for it. But with no free version available, we will be stuck at v0.7.1 and won’t be able to afford the new version.

Maybe – if you do not want to offer a public free version – a free license for students would be good. If someone uses a tool like this during the university years, they will probably use it later on in their companies.

Excellent, the new structure is much better. The $ wasn’t as important a flaw in the previous model as the artificial constraints and lack of source access. Both these have been addressed, thanks for listening.

I find it surprising the number of complaints about no “free” version surprising—if you’re in business, and you’ll be making money from using the software, surely the developers deserve payment for their time and effort?

Keeping 0.7.1 free seems like a fair compromise—if you want more features than it offers, then pay! Perhaps there could be a “previous version free” policy—so 0.x is free while 1.x is current; when 2.0 is released, 1.x line becomes freely available?

Imho all features of small biz plan are already in version 0.71, so there is no sense in that plan, waiting for a demo to take a look either I’am wrong or not )

Very Simple,very clear, and excellent value. As mentioned by many posters a demo, or trial will be a prerequisite to purchase but Im sure you are ‘all over’ that. Kudos for putting your hands up and reassessing, its never easy.

You never know, if all goes well you may be able to offer a limited free (perhaps hosted) version in the future. Next is the reseller / affiliate scheme and the api add ons. Looking forward to it all.

Best of luck.

To respond to a previous post, the complaints about the lack of a free version are exactly because many of us will not be making money with this software, which is not to say we don’t have real and important needs.

I am managing a major health study with dozens of researchers who travel all over the world and as smaller studies are beginning to splinter off organizing the development of the questionnaires, mailing schedules, etc., has become somewhat overwhelming. We are, of course, a non-profit with limited, grant-funded resources.

I would have happily used the previously proposed free version (with its limits) since I agree that hard work should be rewarded, but now I feel a little left out.

I would prefer to see a limited free version return, but I also think there really needs to be non-profit pricing for bonafide non-profit organizations (who can send you the appropriate paperwork.) The standard non-profit discount is %50 (see Central Desktop and others even in this field.)

Perhaps public health research is not important enough to deserve this great software, but I certainly would like to think its.

Great, will buy it!

activeCollab could have been a great and widespread project, but you have failed. Good luck.

It has not failed, the project has merely evolved, because it was not possible for the developers to continue coding for peanuts. Goto projectpeir if you want free and unlimited.

Ilija, I have mentioned this on the forums, but what about if you had a free version with a limit of say 10 projects, and kept the source closed, but allowed use of the API?

That would be probably a good option, that way you can keep the free version limited, and still cater to students / non-profit organisations.

It would be more practical that way, because lets face it, if your providing an API, then there’s not much reason to hack the code, and if the source is closed, there’s no option to hack it at all :D

That would be a good solution, and as Jonas said, if you allow students + others a free version, chances are they’ll continue to use it when they enter the business world.

Alex

I’m so happy ! It’s great that companies actually listen to their client base!
Just Like to say a big thank you to Ilija!

Liam

Definitely impressed with the 180 on the pricing model. Kudos.

If the information about the 1.0 release is accurate and AC does away with the issues I have in basecamp (which I belive it does) – you have a corporate sale.

Like others, I would need to be able to beat on it for awhile to determine if it will work for us or not and where it falls down (everything does somewhere).

My thoughts on hosted demos vs installable.

Hosted demos are a little more difficult to determine if they fit or not due to so many people filling it up with numerous things at the same time – hard to seperate my info from theirs and really analyze how AC works and may fit with my company.

An installable demo keeps in-line with the product (self hosted) and if the correct limits were installed (1 user, 5 projects), would allow for a free version. Alternately, build in a time limit (30 days). Or a combination of both.

A good demo system for something like this is what the stuffedguys.com are doing with their Project Factory app. The 30 day demo has a 5 project limit and requires Ion Cube – keeping the source protected while it is trialed.

The pricing structure is reminiscent of EE – is the support as well? For instance, if I buy corporate now. My support expires in a year. 6 months after my support has ended, new patches (point releases) are made that I determine I need. Can I pick up where I left off by paying the $199 support fee and getting another year – although I let it lapse?

I think this is great, except for two things:
– activecollab needs some sort of offer to help itself get established in the educational and related markets.
– activecollab deserves to get paid more when it sells the product to a massive corporate. At the very least, there should be a limit on the maximum number of support calls a megacorp can make. Otherwise they’ll drive you crazy!

Would be cool to release 0.7.1 under a GPL-like license, excellent for us small, independent guys that mostly work for our selves, but need a simple project management system.

“I am managing a major health study with dozens of researchers who travel all over the world and as smaller studies are beginning to splinter off organizing the development of the questionnaires, mailing schedules, etc., has become somewhat overwhelming. We are, of course, a non-profit with limited, grant-funded resources.”

I don’t want to sound uncharitable, but can a major health study really not afford $200? Do you get 50% discount from all the airlines and hotels the researchers travel to? Will using AC not make you slightly more efficient to justify the expense (less than one night in a hotel in most cities in the world)?

I’ve worked with professional charities, and they recognise that although they may be non-profit, this isn’t necessarily the case for their suppliers. Yes, they are pressured to get best value—but this can be strategic purchasing rather than a straight discount. What if the AC retail price had been $400 and they offered 50% discount—would you take it then because it appears you’re getting better value?

N beat me to the punch. I don’t get the non-profits should get breaks idea either. I can understand maybe a student discount (though I’m not sure why 0.7.1 wouldn’t do in those cases). But, just because a company is called “non-profit” doesn’t mean that they don’t operate similarly to for-profit companies in many ways. For-profit companies don’t have unlimited resources either. Like non-profits, they have to weigh the values vs costs of hiring employees, advertising, buying equipment… software. Kind of a shame really that people sometimes hide behind non-profits as if the entire operation consists entirely of Mother Theresas, working for free and not taking a salary home.

Awesome, awesome, awesome pricing model. Thank you.

I didn’t see ‘templates’ mentioned in the feature list…I’ve seen it in the other boards over the past year, but I want to make sure they are in there before purchasing. I’m ready to buy (assuming there are templates).

Thanks.

Seriously folks – quit whining about about the lack of a free version. Use 0.71 or go with ProjectPier. I just can’t stand this entitlement mentality that just because YOU aren’t using activecollab to make money, Ilija should work for you for free. Try taking that argument to Microsoft, your ISP or to your electric company. If activecollab is worth using, it’s worth paying for. $199 isn’t a lot of money folks. Quit whining! If you don’t want to pay, use a community project. It’s that simple.

v 1.0 hopefully will be better. we stopped using 0.71 and switched to basecamp… not sure we want to switch again. the 0.71 UI wasn’t all that good and aesthetically was blech, 1.0 is lookin’ good, I think we might give activcollab another chance.

You guys have programming sense – no business sense.

I think the biggest problem people have about the lack of a free version is that it differs from from what was originally described. I am not saying AC tricked or lied to us, but it becomes a good example of be careful what you say. There have been a number of statements that there would be a free version. That it was going to have a MySql like license. Etc. I don’t fault AC for looking at the realities of business and realizing they could not support that model, it does however argue in being more guarded in what you say in public. Now, that being said, I do think that offering the core version for free and/or open source and then charging to the “pro” plug ins would also be a viable business model. At the end of the day, it is AC’s business and their decision.

PS: For the love of god is there a RSS feed that doesn’t update EVERY time there is a new comment and I am just missing it? But that is practically enough for me to want to unsubscribe

“I don’t want to sound uncharitable, but can a major health study really not afford $200? Do you get 50% discount from all the airlines and hotels the researchers travel to?”

First, let me say that, obviously, Ilija and his team should create the pricing structure they believe is fair (and this current plan does seem fair) as I appreciate the financial considerations of all for-profit businesses, but I think it’s far from “whining” to air your thoughts about a pricing model when that is the whole point of the board. After all, whether its Weboffice, Central Desktop, or the majority of other like-services there is usually a non-profit category for pricing. So, it’s hardly unreasonable to ask about it.

In any case, all of this is just chit-chat leading up to what I’m sure is going to be an exciting release and each one of us will just have to make a decision based on our individual situation. I know I’m certainly looking forward to evaluating the worth of the product when there is actually a product to evaluate.

Looks good to me now, and I’d been walking away after the previous terms were released. I won’t be jumping in on day 1 but look forward to hearing how the the upgrade process works out for others and more details about differences from the 0.71 version. Also interested, as someone already asked, in info about potentially later upgrading from small biz to corporate version. I don’t need calendar or time tracking because I already use other things but it may be worth it to me later to have it all integrated if the tools are otherwise as good as what I’ve got now. Not clear what Pages will be – something like Writeboards?

If I weren’t already using it I’d want a 30 day trial but since I don’t want to mess with what I’ve got prematurely, a hosted demo appeals more in my case to explore the new features and user interface. I hope both options will be offered eventually.

A free or subsidized version could be sponsored for non profits. No source, probably a project number limit, and with a set theme that reflects whatever the sponsor wants; sponsor pays aC and they work out what the fees and distribution will be. I’ve worked for non-profits and it’s easier to get sponsorship for things that can be ‘branded’ with the sponsor’s logo. Or a sponsor may want to do a version specifically for any post secondary educational group that wants it, because that’s their target demographic. – maybe they include a project template that relates to their product. And ‘free’ versions can require registration that pays with valuable information instead of cash. There are ways to make it work for everybody, and it’s not aC’s job to figure it all out. I’m glad they’re the sort to listen and wish them luck.

hmm.. there is no more Free version.
and basecampe is also not free.
help me.

I’ve just thought of something:
What would be the issue if I say bought one license, but wanted to use two copies of the program on the same server, but with two different domains, using separate DB’s, and stored in separate locations?

Would that be allowed?

I agree, good work with price model.

I also think that some of the other comments are spot on with regards to the need for a free version.

My suggestion would be to offer something with the same feature set as Small Biz, but limited to 1 user and 1 project. Such a trial would allow someone to really get a feel for the application – much more so than a sterile live demo.

You want people to install it and fall in love with it. If someone is taking the time to install a trial version (even time limit it if you need to :P) then they’re going to be much more inclined to upgrade to a real version. Make that upgrade process as simple as the one to switch between Small Biz and Corporate and I think you’re set.

Best wishes for the development. What I’ve seend and used so far is incredibly intuitive and effective.

Terribly sorry for the double post but I did want to clear something up. I don’t think Ilija should give away the product in any regard, my suggestion for a free trial is just that; a suggestion that I think is worth considering which could convert more users into full paying members once they have a taste of what you have here.

Great pricing and thanks for listening !

Count me in for a Corporate when the realease happens :)

I can’t help but feel disappointed. I work at a university and we’ve been using ActiveCollab for some time to manage many projects. I know that I will not be able to talk project directors into paying $200 or $400 for a product unless they can try it first, especially since they have been having problems with ArtiveCollab for some time. I’ve been placating them by telling them another version will be out, and we will be able to try it, but that’s not now the case.

I’m not looking forward to telling them the news.

Thanks for the link to http://www.projectpier.org/ – I’ll check that out!

Wow – amazing how a little bit of interest changes one Illija. AC was started (according to the original blog post which started you in motion) “37 signals would be in trouble if someone spent a weekend making a basecamp clone”.

I championed the Open Source AC with my boss and clients alike (in some pretty large organizations). You got some (rightful) press over a decent product alternative and all you could see was the potential for $’s – and just like that: you closed source.

Not only did this make me look stupid, but also makes a farce of the Open Source initiative. I get that you need to make money; I really do – but the proper thing would have been to hand over the GPL’d project to the open source community, make a sourceforge page, assign a maintainer, and move on to more profitable things.

If that meant doing a rebranded pay-only version of AC then fine; but essentially disappearing the GPL’d ac’s from your site, then stringing people along with the promise of a “lite” version for 6 months while you play pretend software vendor is just shooting yourself in the foot (again).

You’ve lost probably 85% of the open source users that gave you a spotlight in the first place, alienated more with this move and simply made yourself look unreliable in terms of your commitments (commericial or otherwise).

Im sure this post wont be popular and I fully support individuals who wish to profit from their skills but this thing has been mismanaged to the hilt. I would think long and hard about throwing money at this project – the track record is just not good. Many promises to maintain attention and interest; all of which have been “revised”.

It really wouldnt suprise me at all if the next move after launch is to quickly close the doors on this project after the burden of support, updates, bugfixes and plugins doesnt heed enough dough to pay the bills.

Some advice: study your target market, come up with a roadmap, get some startup capital, be cautious in the statements and promises you make to your potential customers and make good on your plans.

All that said its only a small matter of time before better open source (or pay) PM software arrives. Your only selling point is this is user-hostable; you need a designer, UI expert, and probably some PR management to touch anything else re 37Signals – and you still get to worry about Google launching a very solid piece of free PM software (if you think this wont happen just look at googlecode.com).

Best of luck (you’ll need it).

very unreliable –
You came out making some grand statements and just like that you stopped making sense.

“I get that you need to make money; I really do”

You throw this statement out there as if making money is like having a habit of eating chocolate ice-cream on Thursday nights. Why don’t you show your clients and boss how smart you are by spending your spare time expanding the ALREADY FREE AND STILL OPEN 0.7.1? Not smart enough to program it yourself? Why don’t you pay for others to do it out of your own pocket?

Good luck writing a sensible answer (you’ll need it).

Your response is typical of someone who doesn’t really get how the Open Source community functions and gasp profits. My beef is not with his wanting/needing to make money from his work. My beef is with how often he has changed his tune and how many he has strung along (and thus wasted their valuable time). He doesn’t need to work for free on this or any other project – but do not confuse that with the right to waste other peoples time/energy/involvement by misleading a community in his intentions/goals.

Take a moment to think about what would happen if some of your favourite osdn projects shut down development tomorrow, promised a free “lite” version – strung you (or your company) along with the promise of bug fixes and updates for half a year, then introduced a smattering of pricing options none of which include said free version. Id guess IBM and a lot of others would have more than harsh words if Linux were to do anything remotely similar.

People make money via Open Source (quite a bit of it actually) – they just dont do it by selling the software itself. They do it by building strong communities that trust and invest (time, energy, knowledge, and often money) and they capitalize on the resources of the project in a myriad of ways.

My point is – whether it was intentional or just naive the way AC has been managed as a project really puts a sour taste in peoples mouth and they associate it with all the bad things open source is suposed to be.

As per your little ad hominem attack (you shouldnt really accuse someone of not being able to DIY if you dont even know with whom youre speaking – its just silly): In fact we have opted to build our own PM application based on Flex with PHP/SQL underpinnings (keep your eye on googlecode because we will also be opening the project under the MIT License once we hit 1.0).

Anyhow as I said – Im sure my previous comment wont be popular – and I always think its a positive thing to see project “fan-boys”; I just think that if you step back and look at the history of this project (and not the software/persons themselves) and stop thinking in “us vs. them” terms you will probably see that as far as budding small software is concerned there are better horses to back than this one.

This will likely be my last post: I dont think theres anything left to see here (and Ive got nothing else to say on the matter except: what a disappointment).

I think the biggest problem is that for the longest time a number of statements were made about the project being dual licensed and that there would be a free version. And the community reads these as promises—even if they weren’t meant to be. This argues for being more circumspect in what statements are made publicly in the future, and for a little foreboding before making a major change in course. Also removing any sign of 0.71 from the main page just feels a bit uncool.

I personally think there is a decent opportunity for making the core version free and open source, and then selling support and the advanced plugins. I think that would have been much more in line with what the community was expecting.

Regardless I am looking forward to the release of 1.0 and will be making my decision then.

“The final launch is scheduled for October 5th so you better prepare for it.”

That said, can we get some nice blog posts about the features that are in the release and some screen shots with it. :)

Count me in for the Small Biz :)

The pricing is reasonable. For those who cannot spare the funds to pay for it you will need to make do. Expecting a small team of developers to provide you their hard work for free as part of some welfare system is unrealistic.

Your feedback was that the pricing needed to be more affordable, the aC team came through.

For those who are from education / non-profit organisations the pricing structure has been put together to be as simple as possible and to benefit everyone equally.

The simple approach, and the pricing allows Ilija and his team to focus on what they do best, improving aC. You can look at the existing pricing as already taking into account discounts for Education / Non-Profit groups. e.g they just averaged the discount across all packages and there are your prices.

very unreliable:

Perhaps you should take your own advice and not accuse people of not grasping something if you “dont even know with whom youre speaking”. Your idea that I don’t grasp open source, profits, etc. given circumstances you’re not aware of are… laughable?

You also shouldn’t really discount a statement as ad hominem if you are going to make your own ad hominem attacks in the next paragraph. It’s just silly AND hypocritical.

Those things aside, let’s see if I can parse out what your argument is supposed to be here. Your supposed beef is that the community was mislead. You are making the assumption that the aC team planned on making this into a commercial product from the beginning and used the prospect of free software to generate hype. You will probably come back and try to say that that isn’t what you are saying. But, if it is not, it is your poor choice of words to say “misleading” and “wasting peoples time”. Do you think that aC should be automatically on-the-clock for any person that wants something from them just because they have a web-site and some software? What obligation did they ever have to people using free software to perform any management to any certain level? Talk about business sense. What kind of serious business person relies solely on what is written on the internet, with no formal obligation in place? Frankly, I think that IS stupid.

Also, imagine that things went in the reverse direction. Imagine that aC was commercial from the beginning but they decided to go open-source and have the community pick up the development. Are you saying that you would still be on this site complaining that it was mismanaged? I’m sorry. I don’t buy that for a second.

Regarding the fan-boy comment. I hope you’re not referring to me simply because I have a different opinion than you. If so, I would think that would be more boyish behavior than anything else going on here.

The pricing is better. Now let the demo do the talking.

Thanks Ilija

AC i am bummed. i waited and waited and waited to finally have a modern project management tool for my non-profit and after all this time… i sincerely feel left out in the cold. There is nothing left for me here anymore.

I won’t pretend to know why or how an “Open Source” project can go from free to purchase only but it just doesn’t make much sense that you start helping people for free and then pull the rug out from underneath by charging a fee. It’s all too “bait and switch” to me.

Maybe I came in at a transition point that i didn’t quite understand. If I would have known that 0.71 was to be that last “free” install, i would have never wasted time in testing the product… much less going through the install hassle and learning curve on using a new product. I even went ahead and presented the product as a viable “free” software solution for our non-profit and now my judgement is in question because the expected future upgrade comes attached with a fee that was never budgeted for.

Sorry AC. As much as I’d really hoped to count on you and believe in what you’re doing, time doesn’t allow me to stick around waiting for you anymore.

Adios amigo.

Looks pretty reasonable.

I was a bit shocked to see the previous pricing stuff after following this project for a while now and not loading up the AC page for a few months.

Anyway, I am just hoping for some sort of 30-day-esque demo trial run of AC so we can get some real company data in there and have a play (ie. start using it) to see if its worth forking out some moneys.

If no demo, I wish you luck. Seems like a fairly solid project.

Thanks so much for listening to the feedback and making the pricing more suitable for the majority of your users.

I will be trying the demo and most likely buying the corporate edition.

Thanks again!

I have to agree with posted #85. For those of you who werent around since the beginning and wondering what all the hullaballo is: http://wisdump.com/business/being-37signals-for-free/ – note Illija’s comments in response to this blog posting.

No matter what the reason a lot of people feel mislead and I can’t say Ive seen this kind of behavior in any other open source project.

Hello,

I have another concern about licensing, it’s not about the price which are basically “OK” to me, although I’m a bit disappointed to see the project turn from free software to paid plans, anyways… I’ve got two questions :
1. Why is “Support” and “Updates” tied together ?
2. And thus, why do you charge “Updates” on a yearly basis instead of allowing all updates until the next another major version is release (1.x -> 2.0) ?

In my opinion that last point goes out of the open-source concepts, one of the goals of open-source softwares is to be able to have a solid community for fixing bugs (quickly!)... I sure don’t know how fast you plan to release bugfixes and other updates, and I don’t know when the next major version will be released, but obviously few (more) people will get disappointed because they wouldn’t need a new version but just updates (to fix bugs that were in the version they bought) and they will have to pay half the price of the new version just for the updates… Call me stupid but you’re getting further and further away from you original ideas (which were mentioned earlier http://wisdump.com/business/being-37signals-for-free/).

P.S. : I must agree some previous comments, there are proofs of free open-source softwares which earn money without making people pay for licences, to mention one : http://www.drupal.org/

I’m very pleased that you’ve shifted away from a maximum active projects limit to a feature limit for pricing – the maximum active project restrictions a major reason I moved away from BaseCamp.

I also believe you should emphasize that activeCollab 0.7.1 will remain free and still be available so that people looking for a free option still have that avenue they can pursue. However, if people are interested in the additional features of activeCollab 1.0, they have a new option to purchase the new version from you. I believe shifting the emphasis from “removing a free activeCollab 1.0” to “adding a new activeCollab 1.0 that can be purchased” will allay people’s fear from the removal of a free version.

In addition to the possibility of a 30-day trial, a live demo site would also be appreciated so that people can try the additional features in 1.0 before progressing onto a trial or purchase with their own data. I remember that I was able to log into a live demo of activeCollab 0.7.1 while I was still on BaseCamp (I can’t remember where) and it helped me review activeCollab before I made the switch to activeCollab.

Looking forward to 1.0!

That’s definitely something to stick with! Thanks for your reconsideration, the previosu pricing model really made us rethink our decision. Now we are definitely going to buy a corporate license (given the 1.0 is as good as it looks :-)

keep up the good work.

I agree with very@unreliable.com. It’s quite a shame that there’s no free version for personal, non-profit (!) or (very) small biz anymore. You promised it for months and months and then suddenly change your pricing plans within weeks..? I would have switched to another free PM software long ago if I’d knew this would happen. I really can’t understand this behavior.

Hm, seems i was to quick with my post. I didn’t really notive that there won’t by ANY free version. As I hinted at, I DO need a test version. I’m pretty much in the same situation as very@unreliable.com. I, too, pitched that software to my boss and clients (OpenSource being a major factor).

I don’t really mind paying for the software and I consider the pricing to be very ok, but then again I am with very@unreliable.com regarding most of the moral aspects.

I’m a little bit stung about the change of license style, too.

I almost never post comments about any products but feel I should note our opinion on this situation/product.

We’re a small web design firm that is constantly looking for applications to increase productivity. We’re currently using basecamp, but tried goplan, centraldesktop, factorynova. We don’t have a problem paying for software if it is a reasonable price and appears to have a solid development team behind the product.

I have been following the blog and forum for the last few months to see if V1.0 will be a good solution for us. We’re looking to move away from basecamp ASAP. When I saw the post with the initial prices I was simply shocked – not only at the price but at the artificial limits put on software that is hosted by us.

Yes the new prices are better – but we just can’t seem to get over the huge misstep that was AC pricing. That pricing model showed a disconnect from the community and some interesting motives – seems like get as much $ as possible with no regard for how people will use the software. I do give them credit for listening to the community – but we’re simply not sure if we can place our faith in this software for the future.

Ok—This I can work with. At $100 cheaper than CopperProject, and with what appears from a few glimpses to be a more intuitive interface, I think AC could definitely take off if it can prove itself with an online demo.

I think it’s just as well that there’s no free version now: ProjectPier has picked that up and I think a little family competition could be good for everyone.

Ilja: If we buy the Small Biz package and decide later that we need to move up to Corporate, is there an upgrade path?

ilija, blocking comments won’t improve the situation. Julia’s post was in no way offensive.

Let’s keep this discussion short and to the point.

0.7.1 ist still available, 0.8 comes as projectpier and for all the rest who might be happy to pay for a solution, there is ac 1.0. Let’s see if it’s worth the wait and the money and judge then. In the meantime, everybody … back to the mines.

Ilija,

THANK YOU for the pricing restructure. I can most definitely say that your decision has allowed me to purchase a corporate license whereas the old structure would have forced me back to Basecamp. I commend your hard work and willingness to serve your customers.

I know that you never said you intend to compete with existing products, but that is the reality (whether it was your intention or not). This new pricing structure allows a small business (like mine) to afford activeCollab.

To those who are upset about no free version: PLEASE consider what you’re asking for. By investing a relatively tiny amount of money ($200 or $400) you are helping to grow activeCollab over the next few years.

Perhaps in a year if there is an “activeCollab 2.0” then Ilija could release 1.0 as a free version. AFTER they have recouped some of their costs and made a profit on their hard work. I would certainly NOT want to see activeCollab cut its own legs off by releasing a free version right now.

Again, kudos on the new prices. You’ve sold me.

Ilija,

could you comment on the possibility of adding a clause to the license that frees the code for community maintenance in the event that you go out of business?

thanks again for the new pricing structure.

@Ilija, Re David:

I have seen it a more than a few times. Only once in terms of a public license (and it would help if I could remember the name of the product ;), but as a part of a private agreement sure. Basically the code is placed in a kind of escrow (or included with the product) so that should the company go out of business or the product be discontinued then the company can recover the source and maintain it themselves. Interleaf publisher is one product that comes immediately to mind. 3D Production houses do this kind of thing. Etc.

Oh yes, and while you are at it: could you put in some kind of clause that in case you die and all the other developers / investors die, the code could be freed for the community? And if the community dies, maybe you could toss in an afterlife clause so we could collaborate in hell on how to get the hell out of there…

Have fun and coffee ;)

Ilija Studen> Hello, would you mind answering my question (#94) regarding “Updates and Support”... Sorry for the bumping, but it seems it got drowned in the main concerne “free version” :S
In advance thanks.

Hosted Demo Version would be nice to assess which version would be ideal for my business
Other than that, pricing looks great (much more reasonable than before)... Unlimited projects, etc. really sets activeCollab apart from the competition. I currently use 0.7.1 and love it… i know 1.0 will really be on a whole new level… I can’t wait! Great work Ilija!

Will there still be a beta? Haven’t heard anything about that ever since I signed up months ago…

Err..
The software is released tomorrow, somehow I doubt there’s a beta ;)
Also, there was a blog entry about why there was no beta.
http://www.activecollab.com/blog/41/beta-the-end-of-the-beginning/

Tomorrow? So what about the 5th of October then (mentioned above: “The final launch is scheduled for October 5th so you better prepare for it.”)?

You said it was due toomorrow didn’t you :S
Aw rubbish, I’ve got my dates mixed up :S
Sorry

He did. But he has been working on the pricing all weekend, hence the delay. btw Ilija: good job. Now the only people leaving are the ones that weren’t going to pay in the first place anyway ;-)

OK, must have missed that answer, thanks for the heads up. I am not really satisaied of it (the “we do it because we want it that way” thing) but anyways, I still do not get why you would do a yearly plan for Updates when you sell an open-source software. I can imagine that bugfixes/updates will be brought by you only, other updates (contributed..which is kinda the way open-source software are supposed to work) will surely void the Support (unless you plan to run a sharp team of debuggers for reviewing home made codes of your customers).

So in the end, I suppose that the open-source “feature” is just a marketing argument now… also because you don’t have much of a choice when you develop something like this with PHP (which as you might know is also an open-source software which is free). Or do you plan to build a serious community around your “open-source” software ?

@ Icepick: why don’t you have a look at the intalio.com business model, for example. The community builds itself over there. It is also a commercial open source project with a great future, if you ask me. Scepticism and erudition should go hand in hand, don’t you think.

Wow! The new pricing structure is fantastic…it’s a very cost effective solution for my business needs, and while the other day I crossed activecollab off of our list of possibilities, finding this new price has put it as number one. I’m ready to take the plunge on October 5th (perfect timing). Looking forward to the new improvements and to see how this system pans out. Best of luck!

@Davor: I didn’t say their business model was bad, paying for a software is not a problem for me. I said that being an open-source project has advantages over proprietary software, we lost some when the software became paying… and we lost few others right at the time support and updates became paying too.

Open-source project are mainly living on users contributions (code, testing,etc.), now if aC employees only are allowed to contribute I’m not sure it’s a truely open-source software. Giving access to the code is one things, giving the power to users to improve or fix your software is the step further in open-source projets. And I guess it will not be allowed to fork aC 1.x and future version so for me the open-source feature is just useless and is just there for marketing.

All this should be clarified, and the best way to do it would be to release the full licence text of he product… will that happen before the 5th october ?

Hmm, I’m also feeling a bit left out without a free version that’s more dumbed down.

I just use it for more personal projects. And don’t have/make that kind of money to buy it.

I guess the search goes on…

@Davor:

>>He did. But he has been working on the pricing all weekend,
>>hence the delay. btw Ilija: good job. Now the only people leaving are
>>the ones that weren’t going to pay in the first place anyway ;-)

i cant imagine people saying this… this project starts as an open source project!.

im a developer, me and 2 friends where using activecollab because it was very good… but i was waiting for the 1.0 release, now there is no open source version?... i don’t have the money to pay for the software, and even if i had it, i wouldn’t pay for it… because i feel like you lie to us.

in your webpage (http://www.ilija.biz/) says:

>> Check out activeCollab, an easy to use, web based,
>> open source collaboration and project management tool.

OPEN SOURCE!!!!

Thanks, it is more clear indeed, thanks for answering my questions. This is sad, but I understand it is a business decision, too bad you did not choose an alternative business model that also fits with making a software profitable. For example the Beekeper model (http://wiki.pentaho.org/display/BEEKEEPER/3.+The+Beekeeper+Model) which also provides a “whole software” to the customers but still relies on community to improve the software (contribute is the keyword). I totally understand why you provide source code, you explained it, but usually people developing plugins uses API to develop plugins, extensions. Reading core source code is relevant only if the API is not documented or broken (not working as excpected).

Anyways I will surely test aC when/if it is possible and depeneding on how it fits my need I will probably buy a corporate licence… but seeing it turned mostly into a propriertary “source-available” software I do not really see the advantage over Basecamp (etc.) anymore.

Alex.:
> Err..
> The software is released tomorrow, somehow I doubt there’s a beta ;)
> Also, there was a blog entry about why there was no beta.
> http://www.activecollab.com/blog/41/beta-the-end-of-the-beginning/

Yeah, I read that blog entry once it was posted, but it says nothing about there being no beta, just that they closed beta applications because of the huge interest.

So, what about it? Did I sign up for nothing?

Ilja,

I was commited to testing activecollab, because I need a Ticket System. But I am a Small Biz by any means and can’t afford to pay 200 Dollars more for this feature.

I was thinking about switching to goplan, but didn’t really like it.

The reason, I am still sticking with basecamp is, because I am used to it and – I can pay monthly fees.

Hey, maybe you could offer to buy modules. I would pay, say 50 $ for every extra module and could by new ones, when I need them. Sounds fair to me.

Ilija, I had a question about the support and upgrade.. Lets say i purchase the corporate version and decide to not get the upgrades and support past the first year, and later down the road i discover that its probably a good idea to get it. Can i get it, lets say in year 3 or year 4 etc?

@ AK see comment #50 by Ilija

One thing I know is I have never paid for updates on a fixed time basis (yearly in this case), not even with a Microsoft product (I guess we can call them the kings of proprietary software no?).
I mean usually you do not pay for minor updates which usually consist of bug fixes, security fixes (both are due to the developers not the customers) and sometimes features improvements/additions (which are up to the development team to choose when to implement). So you can explain me the yearly plan for updates any way you want I still doubt it is a reasonable choice.
Making people pay for new major version is something I would totally understand. And for the life-cycle of your software you would usually set a limit date until you support updates (for free) for previous major versions, when this limit expires people are invited to upgrade to the new major version or just use the software at their own risk.

Its too bad that this is no longer free. :(

I am really disappointed and surprised that this is no longer free.

I must be mistaken. I thought the whole idea behind AC was that there was no good, free, open source alternative to basecamp. Not that I expect you to spend time coding with no compensation, but using wordpress as an example… “free” does not always mean you won’t make money off of it. I really think you’re going about this the wrong way. But.. to each his own. I for one.. won’t be purchasing because it’s not worth $200 for me.

>On 2007-09-24 1:39, David M. Besonen wrote
>
>> could you comment on the possibility of adding a clause
>> to the license that frees the code for community
>> maintenance in the event that you go out of business?

on 2007-09-24 2:49, Ilija Studen wrote:

> We will not add that to our license. To be completely
> honest, this is the first time I heard of such a thing ;)

thanks for answering my question.

if you reconsider this license detail please contact me. until such time i will not be purchasing activeCollab. i only use (and deploy for my clients) software that is more likely to be supported in the long term.

i will be supporting ProjectPier.

thank you for creating activeCollab.

peace,
david

Pricing model changed ?? Congratulations on that move ! It’s really a rare thing that company is listening to what potential clients have to say…

Regarding pricing model now, it’s fine. If we take complexity and usability of application in consideration, pricing model is really affordable for potential customers and decent enough for the application.

AC team…keep up with good work. Saturized team is with you from the start and will be in the new version as well !

Cheers

Hi,
thanks for changing the pricing model. If aC keeps what it promises (will there be a demo available?) we will buy it ASAP.

Shure thing with commercial software: A good documentation (especially of plug-in API) is mandatory!

bg
Jan